Any XHTML/CSS templates (no tables)?

[tarak]

Are there any templates available that use tableless layouts? I'm looking for something semantic -- XHTML with enough CSS attributes to be useful as a "clean slate" for designers to work off of.

If not, is there anyone in this forum who can build a template for Kayako if I provide the XHTML and instructions for the CSS handles?

Thanks
- Tara

[craigbrass]

Not currently but I really do hope Kayako move with the times and make the default template CSS / Tableless based in V4.

[Jamie Edwards]

We will be bringing the HTML up to standards and make extensive use of CSS, but we will not be jumping on the tableless bandwagon; if there is tabular data that needs to be displayed, we'll be using tables.

[craigbrass]

Oh yes, there is nothing wrong with using tables where a table is more appropriate (like the ticket list) but the rest of the skin should be CSS based.

[bear]

I'm personally not in favor of CSS styling when it comes to important, cross compatible layout. No two browsers see it the same, and the potential for display issues is *really* high, judging from the HTML and nested upon nested table code I've seen in Kayako.
Let individual designers create tableless code, until such time as CSS is rendered the same and reliably in all browsers. I've done it, and still do, but frankly I find it so frustrating at times I could spit. CSS/Tableless is indeed a bandwagon, and still isn't ready for "prime time" IMHO.

Great concept, CSS, poor to horrible implementation in browsers.

[Jamie Edwards]

Originally Posted by craigbrass

Oh yes, there is nothing wrong with using tables where a table is more appropriate (like the ticket list) but the rest of the skin should be CSS based.

Any page layout is XHTML based; CSS simply abstracts the styling of the page layout.

Originally Posted by bear

I'm personally not in favor of CSS styling when it comes to important, cross compatible layout. No two browsers see it the same, and the potential for display issues is *really* high, judging from the HTML and nested upon nested table code I've seen in Kayako.

I think this was true a few years ago, but support of at least three-quarters of the CSS2 standard is good across Trident, Gecko and Webkit flavours; the mainstream layout engines as well as mobile ones, such as Netfront.

I am a big supporter of accessible XHTML and CSS designs that are interoperable, and it certainly is achievable.

[bear]

Originally Posted by Jamie Edwards

I think this was true a few years ago, but support of at least three-quarters of the CSS2 standard is good across Trident, Gecko and Webkit flavours; the mainstream layout engines as well as mobile ones, such as Netfront.

Trident, Gecko, WebKit, Netfront?
I've only heard of Gecko, and I disagree that it's "good" across many browsers. Better now than a few years ago; certainly.
The differences between Mozilla/FF and IE for example...padding, margins are all seen differently. Mozilla refers to the container a div lives in to determine padding (for instance), while IE goes to the parent container, causing numerous differences in rendered layout. In some cases (again padding/margin) to get something to look the same in both, I need to use margin-left: -6px; *and* padding-left: 6px; in IE to get it to do the same that Mozilla does with simply the margin. Don't even get me started on Opera or Safari. :P
That's just one of dozens of these I deal with daily, and hardly indicative of being "good" for all. Is Kayako prepared to answer the layout issues of all the various browsers and versions when it comes to it?

[craigbrass]

And, CSS based templates are better for Search Engine Optimization...

[Jamie Edwards]

Originally Posted by craigbrass

And, CSS based templates are better for Search Engine Optimization...

That is not true. If you were to use Word 2000 to generate a HTML page then yes, that would be bad for Search Engine Optimization due to the use of propietery tags and (un)structure not understood by a web crawler's DOM parser. However, sticking to standard DIV, SPAN and TABLE tags (even using TABLE tags for layout) has no effect on Search Engine Optimization. The HTML currently used for the client-end should not be harming SEO.

Originally Posted by bear

Trident, Gecko, WebKit, Netfront?

Trident - aka MSHTML rendering engine. WebKit - 'open source Safari' (including the iPhone browser and the Google Phone browser), Netfront is a popular mobile HTML browser engine.

Load up css Zen Garden: The Beauty in CSS Design in IE6, 7, Firefox and Opera - effectively they look identical.

[bear]

Originally Posted by Jamie Edwards

Load up css Zen Garden: The Beauty in CSS Design in IE6, 7, Firefox and Opera - effectively they look identical.

Didn't say it couldn't be done, but even the expert that created that CSS didn't get it exactly the same. See the screen shot.
css_proof.gif

Proves my point rather neatly, I think, even if it is a small issue.

[MACscr]

It actually comes down to the skill of the designer when it comes to how it displays to the end user. Also, carefully designed css based design ARE normally more accessible.

[craigbrass]

Well you can certainly do more CSS wise with them than you could with tables.

[nolageek]

The biggest thing that is driving me crazy is all the useless, decorative tables rows kayako uses.. things like four or five table rows to make the top and bottom bars for headers. Why aren't these just background graphics? It's completely annoying when one's trying to redesign the site.

[craigbrass]

Yea, I am looking forward to V4. Hopefully we will see it CSS based as much as possible (obviously many areas still need to be table based) but I will be glad when it is standards compliant. Makes things so much easier.