v4 progress

[esteban]

We all want to know how much completed is v4.. an aprox. number will be perfect..

its 10% completed, 20% ? 60%?


Just to know..


Thanks

[Jamie Edwards]

Hi estebab,

Unfortunatly we are not giving out any "% complete" (as exactly what is complete or needs completing changes day by day). Also at this stage we are not releasing any ETAs on Version 4.

[esteban]

Thanks anyway.

[markb]

I don't think it is unreasonable to Esteban to ask for an ETA - Kayako could at least say 1st Quarter 2008 etc. A rough guide is all your 'clients' are asking - it enables us to plan our own businesses and does give some meaning to the support we are paying.

[craigbrass]

Kayako have never given dates because of the fact that many other companies do and miss them which irritates the customer more. It will simply be ready when it is ready.

[Alex Gontcharov]

I agree, that lack of planning and "ready when it is ready" is something that modern software development company can not afford. This is not a young programmers' club where people do something for fun, or is it?

You see, guys, V.3 is a poor product. Let's face it:

1. It doesn't have features hosting company needs
2. It works very slow
3. It has lots of features we don't need.
4. Not competitive with open source project like RT and OTRS
5. Doesn't work well in UTF8 in other than english languages
6. Feature requests are being considered for years.

Not mentioning, that Kayako web site looks dead since last news on July 2007 when they'd built the last stable release.

If folks from Kayako can't estimate when they are planning to start working on v.4, may be they could implement some of the features in v.3, such as variables in templates?

[Jamie Edwards]

Hi Alex,

I am sorry to hear you are unhappy with Version 3's present functionality. However, I disagree that it is a poor product; it may well not meet your specific requirements, or you may not have use for some of its features, but we are catering to a very wide market who are by in large satisfied with it's offering (albeit the usual one or two feature requests).

We try our best to cater for the majority when adding feature requests.

We have not had reported or identified any performance issues with the software out-of-the-box; the most likely cause of such an issue would be the server it is running on. However, if you believe otherwise then please let us know your findings and we will investigate.

I do not know of any problems with the UTF-8 character set outside of English in the current 3.11.01 build; could you please let me know what you have encountered?

We have a number of resource issues regarding development - we simply do not have enough developers. However, we are working on resolving this and it is taking us some time (training and so on).

We cannot give a roadmap for V4 because it is too early on to do so; the roadmap is changing day in and day out, as is any estimated time of completion of the project.

In the meantime we will do our best to (1) Improve on our development resources so that we can (2) Speed up the development of V4 and add feature requests to V3.

Thanks,

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by markb

I don't think it is unreasonable to Esteban to ask for an ETA - Kayako could at least say 1st Quarter 2008 etc. A rough guide is all your 'clients' are asking - it enables us to plan our own businesses and does give some meaning to the support we are paying.

Indeed.

I'm sure many of us recognize that Kayako is experiencing growing pains and are willing to cut it some slack while new developers are recruited and trained, and more professional change-management processes are implemented. However, there will be no escaping from this one. IT managers will continue to expect an ETA--even a rough one.

The excuse that 'customers will be disappointed when we don't deliver on time' is a bit hollow. Perhaps it was valid when Kayako was a two-person shop and the business was subject to the ups and downs of the creators' personal lives. Nowadays I'll wager that Kayako will be given much more understanding for not being precisely on time than they are for holding back on committing to a timeline which reflects a finite set of enhancements. Setting a goal provides focus for a team, and demonstrates (visibly) a commitment to customers--which in no way implies that Kayako does not feel that commitment at present.

If critical development team numbers are still being filled in, then I suggest many clients would be happy, if not with a time commitment, then with a commitment to commit in the near future.

Come on Kayako. Have a little faith. If you tell us that v4 (for example), is coming in late 2008, and then when that time comes you have to explain that the release needs to be pushed back a month or two, do you really think you'll be flayed alive for it? Nearly everyone on this forum is an IT manager or developer of some kind, and we know how these things go. We are surely willing to wait just a little bit more if we know there will be a visible difference in quality.

But we still need to plan ahead. For example, is it worth it to pay someone to code in that must-have feature, or should I wait for v4, where it's already been implemented? If I shell out the cash, and Kayako releases v4 in two months, I'll feel jilted. If I continue to wait... and wait... and wait... I'll have missed a chance to hack in functionality that would greatly enhance the business and my reputation in my employer's eyes. Either way, I could lose faith that Kayako is interested in my support other than in the first days/weeks/months of a new purchase. And that doesn't benefit anyone.

[Alex Gontcharov]

Dear Jamie,

Thank you for your answer.
I'm sorry. We are your new customer and our oppinion is just
a first impression.

Regarding poor product.
I think the main issue here is poor documentation.
It doesn't explain how to implement such a complex product.
Describing user interface we can do well without it.
what we need is step by step procedures how to implement it
properly in the busy hosting environment.
May be providing a ready to use customization for a sample hosting
company would be a good idea.
Is there a documentaton for customization and developers?
For instance we can't find documentation on how templates are
created. Where all these variables are defined etc.

Regarding issues with UTF-8.
current stable build is not able to disply UTF-8 characters in FROM: and TO: fields. When we receive email from client in UTF-8 format, these fields are not readable.

Regarding performance.
We are comparing Kayako Support Suite with OTRS.
When used in the same environment, OTRS works a lot faster
under the same load. Probably we need to optimize MySQL database
somehow. Do you have a Guide which describes how we can tune
MySQL database?

[markb]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Indeed.

I'm sure many of us recognize that Kayako is experiencing growing pains and are willing to cut it some slack while new developers are recruited and trained, and more professional change-management processes are implemented. However, there will be no escaping from this one. IT managers will continue to expect an ETA--even a rough one.

The excuse that 'customers will be disappointed when we don't deliver on time' is a bit hollow. Perhaps it was valid when Kayako was a two-person shop and the business was subject to the ups and downs of the creators' personal lives. Nowadays I'll wager that Kayako will be given much more understanding for not being precisely on time than they are for holding back on committing to a timeline which reflects a finite set of enhancements. Setting a goal provides focus for a team, and demonstrates (visibly) a commitment to customers--which in no way implies that Kayako does not feel that commitment at present.

If critical development team numbers are still being filled in, then I suggest many clients would be happy, if not with a time commitment, then with a commitment to commit in the near future.

Come on Kayako. Have a little faith. If you tell us that v4 (for example), is coming in late 2008, and then when that time comes you have to explain that the release needs to be pushed back a month or two, do you really think you'll be flayed alive for it? Nearly everyone on this forum is an IT manager or developer of some kind, and we know how these things go. We are surely willing to wait just a little bit more if we know there will be a visible difference in quality.

But we still need to plan ahead. For example, is it worth it to pay someone to code in that must-have feature, or should I wait for v4, where it's already been implemented? If I shell out the cash, and Kayako releases v4 in two months, I'll feel jilted. If I continue to wait... and wait... and wait... I'll have missed a chance to hack in functionality that would greatly enhance the business and my reputation in my employer's eyes. Either way, I could lose faith that Kayako is interested in my support other than in the first days/weeks/months of a new purchase. And that doesn't benefit anyone.

Matthew

Agree! Agree! Agree! You hit the mark perfectly.

I am keen to hear a response from Kayako. Does anyone from Kayako other than Jamie contribute to or read these forums?

[Siora]

Originally Posted by markb

Matthew

Agree! Agree! Agree! You hit the mark perfectly.

I am keen to hear a response from Kayako. Does anyone from Kayako other than Jamie contribute to or read these forums?

I would tend to agree with Matthew's response as well. Its always good to know progress so that we can also plan our projects.

[Jamie Edwards]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Nowadays I'll wager that Kayako will be given much more understanding for not being precisely on time than they are for holding back on committing to a timeline which reflects a finite set of enhancements.

This is the very point; there is no finite set of enhancements or milestones for the V4 project yet; and any internal ones change daily. When we are in the position to we will be the first to share any time estimate with you. When we have had an ETA in the past, we have never withheld it.

If critical development team numbers are still being filled in, then I suggest many clients would be happy, if not with a time commitment, then with a commitment to commit in the near future.

Unfortunately this has not been in the case in the past and even now - hence our policy to under-promise and over-deliver, where possible. Having said this, and for your reasons stated here I can say that based on the current outlook, you should not expect a stable version of Version 4 for at least 8 months.

But we still need to plan ahead. For example, is it worth it to pay someone to code in that must-have feature, or should I wait for v4, where it's already been implemented? If I shell out the cash, and Kayako releases v4 in two months, I'll feel jilted. If I continue to wait... and wait... and wait... I'll have missed a chance to hack in functionality that would greatly enhance the business and my reputation in my employer's eyes. Either way, I could lose faith that Kayako is interested in my support other than in the first days/weeks/months of a new purchase. And that doesn't benefit anyone.

We will eventually start publishing previews, which will better gauge our progress to the public. When we are in a position to we will discuss Version 4 (i.e. in a blog); it will not be kept under closed doors until the date of release - it is not a secret.

Thank you for your time and thoughts shared.

[Jamie Edwards]

Originally Posted by Alex Gontcharov

Regarding poor product.
I think the main issue here is poor documentation.
It doesn't explain how to implement such a complex product.
Describing user interface we can do well without it.
what we need is step by step procedures how to implement it
properly in the busy hosting environment.
May be providing a ready to use customization for a sample hosting
company would be a good idea.

As well as overhauling the current knowledgebase, I am also well into planning the next documentation round. Our current documentation is rather young and fairly immature - we know there can be improvements made. We have received a lot of positive feedback about the current documentation and a lot of suggestions that I will put to use.

An analogical company of some sort will be part of it, as well as documentation that will cover a quick-start guide, staff's manual, administrator's manual and template customisation.

Is there a documentaton for customization and developers?

I am afraid there is not, except what you find posted here on the forum. We will be thoroughly documenting development in the future, however. If you take a look at the code, you will see naming conventions are proper and easy to follow, and things are generally well documented. Between this and community developer support, we have seen a lot of good work be produced and shared here.

Regarding issues with UTF-8.
current stable build is not able to disply UTF-8 characters in FROM: and TO: fields. When we receive email from client in UTF-8 format, these fields are not readable.

Please raise a support ticket about this; it should not be happening.

Do you have a Guide which describes how we can tune
MySQL database?

Unfortunately not. Are the performance issues you are experiencing certainly noticeably slower than when you used OTRS, or only marginally so? How many departments do you have configured?

[hbidad]

I don't understand why it's kayako burden to teach users how to customize a product. They sell a product to you and give it to you. The sell should not include study classes beyond the advertised features. Maybe I'm off one way or another, how many other developers will do this?

I personally think it's in Kayakos best interest to hold off until it reaches public beta before giving any timeframes. As soon as the expected dates are released, we are all like little kids waiting for santa to come. That's probably not the best example, but you get the point.

just my thoughts and 2cents

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by hbidad

I don't understand why it's kayako burden to teach users how to customize a product. They sell a product to you and give it to you. The sell should not include study classes beyond the advertised features. Maybe I'm off one way or another, how many other developers will do this?

Does it include 'study classes' beyond the advertised features? I wasn't aware of that. It seems users help each other on the forums, and the nice people at Kayako may provide a tip now and then for extending the advertised feature set.

I personally think it's in Kayakos best interest to hold off until it reaches public beta before giving any timeframes.

For final release target dates, yes, I think that it a perfectly reasonable assertion. But I think rough estimates such as 'last quarter 2008' are also perfectly reasonable, doing more good than harm.

As soon as the expected dates are released, we are all like little kids waiting for santa to come.

No, 'we' are not. Many of us grew out of the 'Christmas Eve Syndrome' a long, long time ago.

I appreciate Jamie's willingness to provide a rough time frame for v4 (even if it is very rough), and I will keep it in mind that it has been qualified as such.